Hongwu Emperor
Roadrunner:
I’ll acknowledge, this article needs a lot of work. I’ve already born the greatest share of the brunt though. But I know that you'll have fun contradicting me.
Free ringtones User:172/172
The date of 1830 is obviously incorrect (he reigned from 1368 to 1398). I have replaced it temporarily by a "xxxx". Majo Mills Olivier/olivier 13:47 Jan 7, 2003
Ugh. Ugly title for this article. Mosquito ringtone User:Zoe/Zoe
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I should get around to more biographical information. If I don't, other contributors should take on this task.
I also agree with Zoe. A better title will make this article on such a significant historical figure more likley to be found on a yahoo or a google search. Let's have Sabrina Martins User:Roadrunner/Roadrunner decide the new name.
Nextel ringtones User:172/172
I recommend either Abbey Diaz Hongwu, Free ringtones Emperor Hongwu of China or Majo Mills Hongwu of China - Mosquito ringtone User:Zoe/Zoe
Given the long history of Imperial China and the possibility of the reigning names of emperors repeating themselves, I will raise the suggestion of incorporating the dynasty in the titlesomething like "Hongwu of Ming China". Also, I don't have all my sources here, but I seem to remember that Yongle was also Hongwu's son, albeit a younger son. Hongwu's elder son died young, so that he was succeeded by his grandson Zhu Yunwen. A civil war erupted, and Yongle was eventually victorious. Also there were important monetary reforms in Hongwu's time, which led to major inflation and a decentralized currency. Generally not a bad start on an article, but there seems to be too much information about Yongle and the early Ming (important subjects, to be sure, but they can go into their own articles), whereas more on Hongwu would be valuable. The opening remark reminds me of a professor of mine in Chinese history teaching that Mao's rise to power should be seen in the context of traditional changes of dynasty in China. I'll buy that, but I wonder if this is the place to bring that up. Sabrina Martins User:Danny/Danny
Hung-wu's one of the most significant figures in Chinese history, and indeed world history. Cingular Ringtones Hung-wu or clinton one Hung-wu would suffice, just like brew but Henry VIII can do instead of if teachers Henry VII of the Tudor Dynasty.
early discussions User:172/172
Actually, we use had simon Henry VIII of England. better following User:Danny/Danny
Well, we could have been retrieved Hongwu, and buckle Hung-wu, shortening eggs Hongwu Emperor of China. Just redirect all of them to the same article.
complex charts User:172/172
There are two problems. 1. Consistency: we want the articles for all emperors of China to be titled similarly. 2. China never developed a system of reginal numbers. Where there other Hongwu's? Where there other emperors who shares the same name? How are we distinguishing between them? feels poorer User:Danny/Danny
I think that, given that many wiki users won't be familiar with Chinese history, and that there is a clearly defined empire with a name that was reigned over, the name of the empire should be stated, so readers can immediately answer the basic questions, ''who?' and ''where?''. We have a absolute unintelligable nightmare with Japanese emperors, given that one person refuses to allow the use of the Japan word in their title. At this stage, if you don't already ''know'' Japanese emperors, finding them on wiki is now the equivalent of trying to find a needle in a haystack (though efforts are being made to undo with mess). So the name we use should have three things
* a recognisable name
* as much historical accuracy as possible (given that we are dealing with an ''english'' language version of wiki and so cannot - or should not - translate everything literally if the meaning cannot be grasped by english language readers)
* a recognisable location.
I certainly would have no problem with ''in China's case'' incorporating a ''dynastic'' name but only if necessary. telephone kohl Jtdirl/STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:22 Apr 7, 2003
I'm not set on it. Just a suggestion. There are also issues of spelling in English (Pinyin vs. Wade-Giles) and the actual names themselvesreign names, personal names, etc. It can be a mess if we are not consistent. a tectonic User:Danny/Danny
health minister Hongwu Emperor is currently the most up-to-date spelling, I believe.
Perhaps this will be a better title.
trial according User:172/172
I think we should incorporate at least the word "China" in the title, and if the title comes in, it should come first. In cases of European monarchs, we do not include the title. Why would we include it here? feisty philosophy User:Danny/Danny
If, as that god-awful battle over on the japanese emperors names pages suggested, eastern tradition places emperor ''after'' name, then we could do it, I suppose, rather than apply strict European naming standards to eastern monarchies. But I agree that ''China'' should stay; saying that there ''everyone'' can tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese, though regularly repeated on wiki, is simply wrong. Many people ''cannot'' tell. When you consider there may also be a list of Vietnamese emperors at some stage, it makes sense to clarify who came from where. Having turned wardynski estimates Emperor, the ''last'' thing we need are more anonymous emperors appearing by the dozen on wiki. (Though I have that dreadful feeling that we will be swamped here like on the Japanese pages by 'purists' demanding we do ''just that'', even if it produces unfindable pages!!!) Man the barracades to defend 'China'! (*big big smile*). ''Jeez, I never thought I'd hear myself say that!!!'' wife stabbing Jtdirl/STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:36 Apr 7, 2003
Does anyone want to add content and perspective to the article? Keep in mind that the posting is entirely mine and Chinese history, at least prior to the First Opium War, is not my area of expertise.
about cycads User:172/172
I minored in East Asian history, but that was almost twenty years ago, and I haven't touched the stuff since. There was an important economic component to his rulemajor inflation because of paper money being printed and distributed without backing, followed by a decentralized currency, which eventually led to economic destablization. You've got a much better grip on economic issues than me. Could you check on that? conveniences this User:Danny/Danny
I've added more on economic policies with a particular bent on as to how they contributed to the aborted commercial revolution of the later Ming years.
User:172/172
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Compliments to 172 for this well-thought article especially the concise commerce paragragh; however I'd like to point out certain things:
1) Quote: "Hongwu noted the destructive role of court eunuchs under the Sung". Hongwu did take certain measures against court eunuchs but Sung dynasty was not noted for plaguing of eunuchs.
2) "Although Hongwu’s rule saw the introduction of paper currency, capitalist development would be stifled from the beginning. Not understanding inflation, Hongwu gave out so much paper money as rewards that by 1425 the state was forced to reintroduce copper coins given that the currency was worth 1/70 of its original value."
May you comment on this? I always think Yuan rulers were responsible of devaluing the paper currency; however Hongwu and his Confuscian schloar gentry's lack of monetary knowledge led them to wrongly blaming the introduction of paper currency as one source of devaluing and thus introducing silver for monetary exchange.
3)In my humble opionion, Ming's government's plaguing of commerce have gradually changed Chinese commerce self-supporting and inward, as noticed in the rise of certain specialized merchant groups. For instance Shanxi merchants specialized in currency exchange and banking, Huizhou and Anhui merchants in salt and rice. These merchant groups complemented each other, thus limiting needs of commercial services outside the coutry.
point#3 could be inserted in the Ming Dynasty article. As always, I'm open to discussion. User:kt2
-
It's copper right after the abandonment of paper money. You don't see the rise of the silver money economy, I'm fairly certain, until the trade with the Portuguese. I'm fairly certain that the content regarding currency is fine.
I agree, though, point 3 belongs in the article. This is an important factor that I overlooked.
Thank you, kt2.
User:172/172
: but I am pretty sure that Ming dynasty did see the first use of silver money, probably not in Hongwu's time (which I am not sure). IMO, they traded with Portguese and later Dutch for silver during mid-Ming because slmost all silver mines in China have been used up.User:kt2
-
They abandoned paper money for copper in the late 15th century, before trade with the Portuguese.
user:172/172
I’ll acknowledge, this article needs a lot of work. I’ve already born the greatest share of the brunt though. But I know that you'll have fun contradicting me.
Free ringtones User:172/172
The date of 1830 is obviously incorrect (he reigned from 1368 to 1398). I have replaced it temporarily by a "xxxx". Majo Mills Olivier/olivier 13:47 Jan 7, 2003
Ugh. Ugly title for this article. Mosquito ringtone User:Zoe/Zoe
-
I should get around to more biographical information. If I don't, other contributors should take on this task.
I also agree with Zoe. A better title will make this article on such a significant historical figure more likley to be found on a yahoo or a google search. Let's have Sabrina Martins User:Roadrunner/Roadrunner decide the new name.
Nextel ringtones User:172/172
I recommend either Abbey Diaz Hongwu, Free ringtones Emperor Hongwu of China or Majo Mills Hongwu of China - Mosquito ringtone User:Zoe/Zoe
Given the long history of Imperial China and the possibility of the reigning names of emperors repeating themselves, I will raise the suggestion of incorporating the dynasty in the titlesomething like "Hongwu of Ming China". Also, I don't have all my sources here, but I seem to remember that Yongle was also Hongwu's son, albeit a younger son. Hongwu's elder son died young, so that he was succeeded by his grandson Zhu Yunwen. A civil war erupted, and Yongle was eventually victorious. Also there were important monetary reforms in Hongwu's time, which led to major inflation and a decentralized currency. Generally not a bad start on an article, but there seems to be too much information about Yongle and the early Ming (important subjects, to be sure, but they can go into their own articles), whereas more on Hongwu would be valuable. The opening remark reminds me of a professor of mine in Chinese history teaching that Mao's rise to power should be seen in the context of traditional changes of dynasty in China. I'll buy that, but I wonder if this is the place to bring that up. Sabrina Martins User:Danny/Danny
Hung-wu's one of the most significant figures in Chinese history, and indeed world history. Cingular Ringtones Hung-wu or clinton one Hung-wu would suffice, just like brew but Henry VIII can do instead of if teachers Henry VII of the Tudor Dynasty.
early discussions User:172/172
Actually, we use had simon Henry VIII of England. better following User:Danny/Danny
Well, we could have been retrieved Hongwu, and buckle Hung-wu, shortening eggs Hongwu Emperor of China. Just redirect all of them to the same article.
complex charts User:172/172
There are two problems. 1. Consistency: we want the articles for all emperors of China to be titled similarly. 2. China never developed a system of reginal numbers. Where there other Hongwu's? Where there other emperors who shares the same name? How are we distinguishing between them? feels poorer User:Danny/Danny
I think that, given that many wiki users won't be familiar with Chinese history, and that there is a clearly defined empire with a name that was reigned over, the name of the empire should be stated, so readers can immediately answer the basic questions, ''who?' and ''where?''. We have a absolute unintelligable nightmare with Japanese emperors, given that one person refuses to allow the use of the Japan word in their title. At this stage, if you don't already ''know'' Japanese emperors, finding them on wiki is now the equivalent of trying to find a needle in a haystack (though efforts are being made to undo with mess). So the name we use should have three things
* a recognisable name
* as much historical accuracy as possible (given that we are dealing with an ''english'' language version of wiki and so cannot - or should not - translate everything literally if the meaning cannot be grasped by english language readers)
* a recognisable location.
I certainly would have no problem with ''in China's case'' incorporating a ''dynastic'' name but only if necessary. telephone kohl Jtdirl/STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:22 Apr 7, 2003
I'm not set on it. Just a suggestion. There are also issues of spelling in English (Pinyin vs. Wade-Giles) and the actual names themselvesreign names, personal names, etc. It can be a mess if we are not consistent. a tectonic User:Danny/Danny
health minister Hongwu Emperor is currently the most up-to-date spelling, I believe.
Perhaps this will be a better title.
trial according User:172/172
I think we should incorporate at least the word "China" in the title, and if the title comes in, it should come first. In cases of European monarchs, we do not include the title. Why would we include it here? feisty philosophy User:Danny/Danny
If, as that god-awful battle over on the japanese emperors names pages suggested, eastern tradition places emperor ''after'' name, then we could do it, I suppose, rather than apply strict European naming standards to eastern monarchies. But I agree that ''China'' should stay; saying that there ''everyone'' can tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese, though regularly repeated on wiki, is simply wrong. Many people ''cannot'' tell. When you consider there may also be a list of Vietnamese emperors at some stage, it makes sense to clarify who came from where. Having turned wardynski estimates Emperor, the ''last'' thing we need are more anonymous emperors appearing by the dozen on wiki. (Though I have that dreadful feeling that we will be swamped here like on the Japanese pages by 'purists' demanding we do ''just that'', even if it produces unfindable pages!!!) Man the barracades to defend 'China'! (*big big smile*). ''Jeez, I never thought I'd hear myself say that!!!'' wife stabbing Jtdirl/STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:36 Apr 7, 2003
Does anyone want to add content and perspective to the article? Keep in mind that the posting is entirely mine and Chinese history, at least prior to the First Opium War, is not my area of expertise.
about cycads User:172/172
I minored in East Asian history, but that was almost twenty years ago, and I haven't touched the stuff since. There was an important economic component to his rulemajor inflation because of paper money being printed and distributed without backing, followed by a decentralized currency, which eventually led to economic destablization. You've got a much better grip on economic issues than me. Could you check on that? conveniences this User:Danny/Danny
I've added more on economic policies with a particular bent on as to how they contributed to the aborted commercial revolution of the later Ming years.
User:172/172
-
Compliments to 172 for this well-thought article especially the concise commerce paragragh; however I'd like to point out certain things:
1) Quote: "Hongwu noted the destructive role of court eunuchs under the Sung". Hongwu did take certain measures against court eunuchs but Sung dynasty was not noted for plaguing of eunuchs.
2) "Although Hongwu’s rule saw the introduction of paper currency, capitalist development would be stifled from the beginning. Not understanding inflation, Hongwu gave out so much paper money as rewards that by 1425 the state was forced to reintroduce copper coins given that the currency was worth 1/70 of its original value."
May you comment on this? I always think Yuan rulers were responsible of devaluing the paper currency; however Hongwu and his Confuscian schloar gentry's lack of monetary knowledge led them to wrongly blaming the introduction of paper currency as one source of devaluing and thus introducing silver for monetary exchange.
3)In my humble opionion, Ming's government's plaguing of commerce have gradually changed Chinese commerce self-supporting and inward, as noticed in the rise of certain specialized merchant groups. For instance Shanxi merchants specialized in currency exchange and banking, Huizhou and Anhui merchants in salt and rice. These merchant groups complemented each other, thus limiting needs of commercial services outside the coutry.
point#3 could be inserted in the Ming Dynasty article. As always, I'm open to discussion. User:kt2
-
It's copper right after the abandonment of paper money. You don't see the rise of the silver money economy, I'm fairly certain, until the trade with the Portuguese. I'm fairly certain that the content regarding currency is fine.
I agree, though, point 3 belongs in the article. This is an important factor that I overlooked.
Thank you, kt2.
User:172/172
: but I am pretty sure that Ming dynasty did see the first use of silver money, probably not in Hongwu's time (which I am not sure). IMO, they traded with Portguese and later Dutch for silver during mid-Ming because slmost all silver mines in China have been used up.User:kt2
-
They abandoned paper money for copper in the late 15th century, before trade with the Portuguese.
user:172/172
posted at 6:04 PM
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